Leadership
Our Board and Executive Committee
APIC is governed by an elected board of directors composed of four officers, the immediate past-president, no less than nine and no more than 12 directors.
The executive committee includes the president who serves as chair, the president-elect, the immediate past president, the treasurer, the secretary and one at-large board member. The chief executive officer serves as an ex-officio member of the board of directors and the executive committee.
- The board is responsible for positioning the association to best serve APIC members as well as maintaining the focus and vision to improve the practice and management of infection prevention.
- The board establishes policy; directs the activities of the elected officials, committees, and chief executive officer; oversees APIC’s finances; and charters chapters.
2025 Board of Directors
Board of Directors List: 2025
APIC Officers and Board of Directors
President
Kathy Ward
RN, BSN, MPH, FAPIC, CIC
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Infection Preventionist, Team Lead
Roper Hospital, Charleston, SC
Katherine (Kathy) Ward has been an Infection Preventionist for more than 20 years. Her current position is Infection Preventionist, Team Lead, at Roper St. Francis Healthcare in Charleston, SC. As a member of APIC-Palmetto Chapter, she has served as President, President-Elect, Program Chair and Co-chair as well as member and Chair of Governmental Affairs. Currently, she is a member of the SC Healthcare Infections Disclosure Advisory Council as well as Chair of the APIC Palmetto LASIC.
Kathy has also served at the National level as Member/Chair of Nominating and Awards Committee; Board of Directors in addition to Member and Chair of Practice Guidance Committee.
Her interests include focus on reducing the labor of data collection and reporting in order to allow the IP to utilize the expertise to prevent HAIs.
Kathy believes APIC will continue to be the leader with the ever changing healthcare environment while remaining cognizant of the challenges facing IPs at the local level.
Kathy received her Bachelor of Science degree from Florida International University and Master in Public Health from Emory University. She has been certified in Infection Control since 1993.
President-Elect
Deborah Patterson Burdsal
PhD, RN-BC, CIC, LTC-CIP, FAPIC
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Infection Preventionist
Baldwin Hill Solutions LLC
Deb Burdsall is a long term care Infection Preventionist who has worked in long term care since 1974. She started as a nurse’s aide, and has worked as a staff nurse, nursing supervisor, interim director of healthcare services, MDS/care plan coordinator, wound nurse, quality assurance coordinator, and clinical inservice coordinator. Deb has worked in acute care in both medical oncology and telemetry at a large academic medical center.
Deb is board certified in infection prevention and control (CIC), long term care infection prevention and control (LTC-CIP), and ANCC certified in gerontological nursing. She is a Fellow of the Association for Professionals in Infection Control and Epidemiology (APIC).
Deb has a BA in psychology with a minor in biology from Allegheny College in Meadville, Pennsylvania, and a diploma in nursing from The Evanston Hospital School of Nursing. Deb received her MSN and PhD from The University of Iowa College of Nursing. Her doctoral dissertation involved examining how healthcare personnel use gloves when caring for patients, including testing the reliability of a glove use surveillance tool.
Deb is a grantee with Hektoen Institute and The Illinois Department of Public Health working with congregate care settings in Illinois. She works to find evidence-based, cost-effective infection prevention strategies for long term care. She co-authored the APIC Infection Prevention in Long Term Care and has been on working groups for other APIC toolkits and documents, including the APIC LTC-CIP Review Course, APIC/IPAC Ethical Infection Prevention and Control (EIPAC) Decision Making Framework, and the AADNS/APIC Implementing the Use of Enhanced Barrier Precautions in Skilled LTC Nursing Facilities.
Immediate Past- President
Carol M. McLay
DrPH, MPH, RN, FAPIC, FSHEA, CIC
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Infection Prevention Consultant
Lewisville, North Carolina
Dr. Carol M. McLay is a leading consultant in infection prevention and control, healthcare epidemiology, and public health, with over 25 years of experience advancing clinical practice, research, and education in the field.
A passionate advocate for certification and education, Dr. McLay is dedicated to mentoring the next generation of infection preventionists. She frequently speaks at state, national, and international conferences and is the author of several key resources, including The Infection Prevention Competency Review Guide, 4th Edition, and APIC’s Certification Study Guide (5th–7th editions).
Dr. McLay served as the 2025 APIC President and holds leadership roles as a Director on the International Federation for Infection Control (IFIC) Board and the AJIC Editorial Board. She is certified in infection prevention and control (CIC), a Fellow of both APIC and SHEA, and a certified ISO 9001 Lead Auditor.
Dr. McLay earned her Bachelor of Science in Nursing from the University of Ottawa (Canada), her Master of Public Health from Emory University (USA), and her Doctorate of Public Health from the University of Kentucky (USA).
Secretary
Elizabeth“Beth”Wallace
MPH, CIC, FAPIC*
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Director, Infection Prevention
Corewell Health
Beth Wallace is currently Director of Infection Prevention and Epidemiology at Corewell Health Southfield, Michigan.
She has been an infection preventionist for 16 years in hospitals of varying sizes and settings, including both community and academic care sites.
As an APIC member since 2006, Wallace has served at the local chapter and national level. Local chapter engagement includes president-elect and president of the Dallas-Fort Worth and Great Lakes chapters of APIC. Nationally, she was a member of the steering committee for APIC’s 2018 consensus conference “The Role of the Infection Preventionist in a Transformed Healthcare System: Meeting Healthcare Needs in the 21st Century” and contributed to APIC’s COVID-19 white paper published in 2022 “Between a Rock and a Hard Place: Recommendations for Balancing Patient Safety and Pandemic Response.” She also served as Chair of APIC’s national Communications Committee. She has been a speaker at local APIC chapter events and at the national conference.
Wallace received her Bachelor of Science Degree in Biology from Valparaiso University and her Master of Public Health degree with a focus on hospital and molecular epidemiology from the University of Michigan. She has been certified in infection control (CIC) since 2008.
Treasurer
Lisa Caffery
MS, BSN, RN, MEDSURG-BC, CIC, FAPIC, AL-CIP
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Lisa is the Infection Prevention Coordinator at Genesis Health System in Davenport, IA. She has more than 40 years of nursing experience 25 of which have been in infection prevention and control. Her practice settings include acute care and critical access hospitals and ambulatory care. She is an active member of Eastern Iowa APIC and the Iowa Nurses Association where she served at president 2019-2021.
Lisa is a current member of the APIC Board of Directors serving as a director at-large. She is the chair of the APIC Ethics Committee and co-chair of the APIC/IPAC-Canada Task Force working on the publication of an Infection Prevention and Control Ethical Framework. She is a member of the APIC By-Laws and Finance Committees.
Lisa is a clinical editor for the APIC Text-On-line, and served as a contributing author to the 2014 and 2014 editions of the CIC Certification Study Guide. She has presented at both local, state and national conferences on multiple infection prevention & control topics, including professional development.
She is a past chair of the APIC Professional Development Committee, and served as a member of the APIC Competency Revision Task Force. In these roles, Lisa was instrumental in the revision and publication of the APIC Competency Model, Professional Practice Standards and the development of the APIC Fellows recognition program.
She received her Bachelor of Science in Nursing from Marycrest /college in Davenport, IA and Master in Healthcare Administration from the University of St. Francis in Joliet, IL. She has been certified in Infection Prevention and Control since 2004 and Medical-Surgical Nursing through the American Nurses Credentialing Center since 1993. In 2016, she received recognition as an APIC Fellow.
Directors
External Director
Dr. Ellen Taylor
PhD, AIA, MBA, EDAC
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Vice President for Research
Center for Health Design
Dr. Ellen Taylor is Vice President for Research at the Center for Health Design, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit. She has a bachelor’s degree in architecture from Cornell University’s College of Architecture, Art and Planning, Global Executive MBA degrees from Columbia University and London Business School, and a PhD in design, patient safety and human factors from Loughborough University in England. She serves on the Facility Guidelines Institute Health Guidelines Revisions Committee (FGI HGRC) as Vice Chair, on the Editorial Advisory Board of the American Journal of Infection Control (AJIC), as co-editor of the Health Environments Research and Design (HERD) Journal, and she was a board member of the AIA Academy of Architecture for Health (2019-2023), serving as president in 2022. Dr. Taylor was recognized by Healthcare Design as one of the HCD10 (Research) in 2017 and by the Facility Guidelines Institute in 2023 with the Pioneer Award.
As an external director, Dr. Taylor will bring her passion for patient and staff safety to the APIC Board, with a particular focus on the role of the built environment. Additionally, she will bring her experience in both collaborating toward and leading consensus-based initiatives. She led the FGI HGRC workgroup to establish minimum requirements for seven components of a Safety Risk Assessment (SRA), and she simultaneously worked with The Center for Health Design’s team, and more than 120 volunteers, to advance the SRA toolkit to support the Guidelines requirements. She led the development of the open-access online SRA tool that launched in 2017. A nationally and internationally recognized writer and speaker, she has participated in grant-funded research programs and published numerous peer-reviewed papers. She has authored numerous guidance documents, as well, including the Infection Control Risk Assessment chapter in the 2018 ASHE publication, Using the health care physical environment to prevent and control infection.
Director
Paula A. Pintar
RN, MSN, ACNS-BC, CIC, FAPIC
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Southern Regional Infection Preventionist
Wisconsin Department of Public Health
Paula Pintar most recently served as the Enterprise Director for Infection Prevention and Control at Froedtert & The Medical College of Wisconsin in Milwaukee. Paula has more than two decades of experience working as a Registered Nurse in critical care, hospice and home care and more than ten years in the field of infection prevention and control. She has held local APIC positions including chapter president and board of directors in Wisconsin and served on the national Professional Development committee. Paula has leadership experience in the private and public health sectors. She served as the Chief Quality officer at our nation’s first and only integrated Department of Veterans Affairs and Department of Defense / Navy health care center, Captain James A. Lovell Federal Health Care Center in North Chicago, Illinois this facility is integrated with the Great Lakes naval base, serving our veterans and active-duty service men and women. She has authored and presented conference abstracts locally and at the state, published works in peer reviewed journals focused on supporting and advancing the Infection Prevention professional. She has also been a speaker at local and state conferences highlighting infection prevention and control topics.
Director
Justin Smyer
MBA, MPH, MLS(ASCP)CM, CIC, FAPIC
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Director, Department of Clinical Epidemiology and High-Level Disinfection
The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center
Justin Smyer is a certified infection preventionist and the director of the Department of Clinical Epidemiology and High-Level Disinfection Team, at The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center. He is also a fellow of the Association for Professionals in Infection Control and Epidemiology (APIC).
Smyer has been in infection prevention since 2011 working in an acute care/academic medical center in a variety of settings including community, rehabilitation, psychiatric and oncology hospitals. He served as the Education Chair (2016-2017) and President (2020-2021) for the Central Ohio APIC Chapter. He also served on the Nominating Committee (2015) and as the Chairman (2017) for the national Comprehensive Cancer Center Infection Prevention group (C3IC).
Smyer was a chapter author of APIC Text, 4th edition and The Infection Preventionist’s Guide to the Lab. He also received APIC’s New Investigator Award in 2016 for developing an electronic VAE surveillance program. Smyer is a certified Medical Laboratory Scientist with six years of experience working in Clinical Microbiology. Smyer is a graduate of The Ohio State University College of Public Health’s Master of Public Health program and Fisher College of Business Master of Business Administration program.
Director
Lisa K. Sturm
MPH, CIC, FAPIC
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Senior Director, Infection Prevention
Ascension
Lisa Sturm has been in the field of infection prevention for more than 30 years, is certified in infection prevention and is a Fellow of APIC. Prior to working in infection prevention and control, she was a nuclear medicine technologist, but her passion has always been rooted in germ theory.
Sturm has worked in various capacities during her career in academic and community hospital settings, and most recently in a system role as senior director of Infection Prevention at Ascension, the largest non-profit health system in the United States. She has served APIC as Chair of APIC’s national Public Policy Committee and the Chapter Legislative Representative (CLR) for the APIC Great Lakes Chapter. Prior to that Sturm served her APIC chapter in various other board roles over the years.
Sturm has been published in numerous peer-review journals including the American Journal of Infection Control (AJIC) and Infection Control & Epidemiology (ICHE). She is the author of book chapters on infection prevention and control and has presented internationally. Her most recent research is centered around the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on healthcare-associated infections.
Sturm loves working in infection prevention and believes it is one of the most important and rewarding jobs in healthcare today.
Director
Aimee Baerlocher
MPH, CIC, FAPIC
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Infection Preventionist
St. Luke’s Health System
Aimee Baerlocher MPH, CIC, FAPIC, has been an Infection Preventionist for 20 years at St. Luke’s Health System in Boise, Idaho and certified (CIC) since 2007 and received a Fellow of APIC (FAPIC) in 2017. She currently is the System Director of Infection Prevention, having program oversite in Acute Care, Critical Access, Rehab, LTC, Home Health, and Ambulatory settings to ensure best practice implementation, standardization, and building collaborations. Aimee’s journey in IP also consists of volunteering for her local APIC Chapter (Intermountain 123) in President, Secretary, and committee roles and serving on the national APIC Member Services Committee (2017-2019) and most recently on the Nominating and Awards Committee (NAC) (2021-2023) and participating with APIC’s Corporate Group, networking with system directors and other IP programs. Volunteering at a local and national level leads to a path of leadership, gaining new knowledge, experiences, networks, and advancements in the profession. IPs learn and grow from each other every day. Aimee has been dedicated to growing and mentoring IPs, ultimately building pathways for professional and career advancement through training, competencies, and certification in the field, and presented on the topic at the APIC virtual conference in 2021. She is always looking for ways to advance and support the profession and is a true champion of APIC and the IP role. There are many opportunities for sharing best practices and improvements in infection prevention, decreasing HAIs, and providing safe patient care. Aimee is looking forward to building new relationships and collaborations and bringing best practices to the membership and continuing to advance the profession.
Director
Kristina Felix
RN, MSN, CRRN, CIC, LTC-CIP, FAPIC
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Infection Prevention Manager
Madonna Rehabilitation Hospitals and St. Jane de Chantal Long Term Care Services
Kristi has worked in post acute care infection prevention for 34 years mainly in the rehabilitation hospital setting and long term care. She has been the Infection Prevention Manager for Madonna Rehabilitation Hospitals for over 29 years. Madonna has campuses in Lincoln and Omaha, Nebraska and provides specialized care for patients in the inpatient rehabilitation hospital setting as well as long term acute care hospital, skilled nursing care, and ventilator skilled care.
Kristi has completed her Master’s degree in Nursing with specialization in Infection Prevention. She is a Certified Rehabilitation RN, and holds CIC, LTC-CIP through CBIC. She is a Fellow of APIC. Kristi serves on the Board for the Nebraska Infection Control Network, and is the long term acute care representative for the State of Nebraska HAI Advisory Committee. She has served as a subject matter expert and education instructor for National APIC project teams and courses, including the APIC LTC Certification Course. She recently worked as a committee member that developed the LTC certification exam and is on the Test Committee for CBIC.
Director
Chaz Rhone
MPH, CIC, FAPIC
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Division Assistant Vice President of Infection Prevention
HCA Healthcare North Florida Division
Chaz earned a Master of Public Health in Epidemiology from the University of Florida and began his career as an Infection Preventionist in 2007. He is currently the Assistant Vice President of Infection Prevention at HCA Healthcare North Florida Division where he oversees infection prevention operations and strategy for 15 acute care facilities and all associated sites of care. Chaz became certified in infection prevention in 2012, recognized as an APIC Hero (2016), APIC Fellow (2019), and APIC Champion (2022).
His professional passions include advancing the field of IP through leadership development of IPs and advocating for MPH-ers as equally qualified candidates for IP positions. To that end, he serves as co-chair of the APIC Academic Pathway Steering Committee (2021 – present), and recently served on the APIC Professional Development Committee (2020 – 2022).
On a personal note, Chaz is a New Orleans native, an extroverted introvert, violinist, Jeep enthusiast, and “sneakerhead”. He is a husband to Tara, who also works in infection prevention, and a girldad to Lily (9) and Iris (6).
Director
Bethany Phillips
MPH, CIC, HACP-IC, ASCP (CM), CPHQ, FAPIC
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Director of Infection Prevention
Advocate Health
Bethany Phillips is the enterprise Director of Infection Prevention for Pediatrics and NICU at Advocate Health. Before that, she spent over 10 years at Children’s Medical Center Dallas, progressing from medical technologist to Director of Infection Prevention.
Bethany has been an engaged national APIC volunteer since 2019 and currently serves as Chair of the Practice Guidance Committee. Under her leadership, the committee has expanded its scope—continuing to review and contribute to external documents while also developing original guidance to address evolving frontline needs. She has co-authored several national APIC practice resources and peer-reviewed publications. In recognition of her impact, she was named an APIC Champion in 2022 and a Fellow of APIC in 2024.
She also represents APIC as liaison to the Association for the Advancement of Medical Instrumentation (AAMI), contributing to national standards on disinfection and sterilization, including guidance for endoscope and ultrasound probe reprocessing.
At the local level, Bethany previously chaired the Professional Advancement Committee for the APIC Dallas-Fort Worth Chapter, supporting infection preventionists in pursuing CIC certification. She received the APIC DFW Star Award in 2021 for her contributions to the chapter.
Bethany holds a Master of Public Health in Epidemiology and is certified in infection control (CIC), healthcare accreditation (HACP-IC), and clinical laboratory science. She is passionate about advancing infection prevention through practical, evidence-based strategies and collaborative leadership.
Director
Kathleen McMullen
MPH, CIC, FAPIC, FSHEA
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Executive Director, Infection Prevention and HLD/Sterilization
Mercy Quality and Safety Center
Kathleen received a Bachelor’s degree in Biology and a Masters in Public Health concentrating in Epidemiology and Biostatistics from St. Louis University. She is the Executive Director for Infection Prevention and HLD/Sterilization at Mercy, coordinating efforts for 45 hospitals and healthcare facilities in Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma and Kansas. Kathleen is Board Certified in Infection Prevention and Control, a Fellow of APIC and a Fellow of SHEA.
Kathleen is the current chair of APIC’s Corporate Director Council, is past chair of the Practice Guidance Committee and has held several positions on her local APIC chapter board (Chapter 073, St. Louis, MO). She has represented APIC on the SHEA Disinfection and Sterilization guidelines and AAMI guideline committees.
Director
Aaron A. Woodall
DrPH, MPH, CIC, LTC-CIP
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Chief, Infection Prevention and Contro
James A. Haley Veterans Hospital and Clinics
Aaron A. Woodall is the Chief of Infection Prevention & Control for Tampa/VISN 8 Veterans Integrated Service Network within the Department of Veterans Affairs. An infection preventionist with nearly two decades of global experience,
Aaron’s career began in military combat medicine and public health efforts across Eastern Afghanistan, Europe, Middle East and Africa. His expertise spans diverse healthcare environments, including public health, major hospitals, long-term acute care, spinal cord injury, home care, laboratory, inpatient behavioral health, homeless shelters, and long-term care.
External Director
James Moses
MD, MPH
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Chief Clinical Officer
Corewell Health
James Moses, M.D., MPH, is the chief clinical officer for Corewell Health. Formerly served as the system chief quality officer and senior vice president of quality, safety and patient experience, Corewell Health. Corewell Health is an $8.3 billion not-for-profit integrated health system based in Michigan. Through collaborative efforts and focused initiatives, Dr. Moses is responsible for clinical care, quality and safety initiatives and managing population health and value-based programs. He is dedicated to improving quality, safety and patient experiences through collaboration and targeted initiatives. As an experienced leader, he is passionately committed to enhancing patient care across various clinical settings and populations.
Ex Officio
CEO
Devin Jopp
EdD, MS (APIC CEO)
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APIC
Dr. Jopp joined APIC as CEO on December 7, 2020. He brings to APIC more than two decades of association leadership with a wide array of experience and accomplishments from across the healthcare and nonprofit sectors. He has been recognized as one of the top 100 most influential healthcare leaders by Healthcare Management International Magazine and one of the top 50 healthcare IT experts by Health Data Management Magazine.
Prior to APIC, he served as CEO for the American College Health Association, the principal leadership organization for advancing the health and well-being of the nation’s 20 million college students and their campus communities through advocacy, education, and research. He has also previously served as president and CEO for the Workgroup for Electronic Data Interchange (WEDI), a national nonprofit advisor to the Secretary of Health and Human Services focused on enhancing the exchange of healthcare information. Before joining WEDI, he served as chief operating officer for the Service Corp of Retired Executives, a national nonprofit organization that provides business mentoring and training to American entrepreneurs. Earlier in his career, Dr. Jopp held leadership positions at URAC, an independent, nonprofit healthcare accreditation organization, and at the Health Insurance Association of America.
Dr. Jopp received a Bachelor of Arts in computer information systems from the College of Notre Dame of Maryland, a Master of Science in computer and information sciences from Hood College, and a Doctor of Education in human and organizational learning (EdD) from the George Washington University.
Terms expire as noted above in parenthesis after each name. The president, president-elect, and immediate past president are one year terms with the president-elect succeeding to president and then immediate past president effectively serving for three years in a president-related role. Both the treasurer and secretary serve two-year terms.
Founders
We salute APIC’s first executive committee, board of directors, and steering committee:
First APIC Executive Committee
President
Patricia Lynch
President-Elect
Kay Wenzel
Vice-President
Shirley Chewick
Corresponding Secretary, Official Letters
Carolyn Langewisch
Recording Secretary, Official Records and Chairman of Membership
Leilani Kicklighter
Treasurer and Chairman of Finance
Ruth Groeneveld
First APIC Board of Directors
Claire M. Coppage (Chairman)
Karen Axnick
Julie Garner
Marcella Pete
Jean Vandermade
APIC Steering Committee
Karen Axnick
Sister Sara James Byrne
Shirley Chewick
Claire M. Coppage
Carole DeMille
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Carole DeMille served as APIC president from 1975-76. One of APIC’s visionary founders, she later became an internationally recognized authority in the developing field of hospital infection control. She passed away in 1979, but her vision lives on in the work of infection preventionists and front-line care teams throughout the world. In 1980, APIC established an award in her honor. Learn more about past recipients. Below, past presidents reflect on Carole DeMille and her contribution to the infection prevention field.
Patricia Lynch:
“I was inspired by her, laughed with her, got kicked into gear by her. Carole was unstoppable, inventive and wildly fun to work with. One night after a long day of an APIC Board meeting we were tired and discouraged. We couldn’t afford elections AND a conference so we would all have to re-up for another year; also, we were eating burgers from McDonald’s—again—and bedtime was too far off. Carole made us stop what we were working on and develop a budget for $100,000, a sum well beyond what we had even dreamed about. She made us do it! We were absolutely energized by the budget exercise and our vision improved immediately. Carole was like that. Long after she passed on, her influence still flowed through us.”
George Counts:
“I first joined the APIC board in 1977, which was then under the leadership of Carole DeMille. Aside from her enormous fund of knowledge about infection control and hospitals, Carole had impressive leadership skills. She had the ability to interact with persons, make them comfortable, and make them willing to follow her. She could also laugh at circumstances and at herself. I was very pleased when APIC decided to honor her memory by establishing in her name its highest award. She represented a level of professionalism toward which all of us could properly aim.”
Cathryn Murphy:
“Rather than try and condense the enormous respect, affection and commitment I feel for APIC and its members I would prefer to submit this poem dedicated to Carole DeMille as the closing part of my 2010 presidential address. It tells far better than I could how Carole’s vision for the organization has grown to be the organization so loved by us all.”
So Carole
I’ve told you lots of stories, I’ve shared my biggest fears,
I’ve done it with great pride but I’m holding back the tears
You now know about your APIC, the one you helped us build.
You’ve heard about its growth, you know it leads the field;
I wonder how you find us? I wonder are you proud?
Should we bask a while in sunlight or cower under cloud?
Have we carried on your passion, your integrity, your direction?
Have we honoured your intention, your vision and your perfection?
Have we been relentless, successful and courageous?
How do you really find us? Well intended or outrageous?
Have we made preventing infection appealing, perhaps inviting
Would it still attract you, would it be exciting?
Whatever your answer, whatever your view
On behalf of APIC, its members and its crew,
Let, me say it loudly
Carole DeMille rest well, we miss you, and
Thank you
Barbara Russell:
“I was very fortunate to know Carole DeMille and believe many of her traits rubbed off on me. She even visited us in South Florida. I remember saying to myself, I want to be like her some day and that made it very special when I received the Carole DeMille Award in 2002.”
Lorraine Harkavy:
“Carole DeMille was a warm, kind person. I never saw Carole when she didn’t have a smile on her face. She was passionate about infection control and prevention and had every patient on her mind and the importance of protecting them and the staff…. When I started in infection control, I contacted Carole for advice and guidance. She was always willing to help and was gracious to share her time and knowledge. Along the way, we always took our work seriously, but not ourselves. So we had a few good laughs at ourselves when we realized we were still learning and always would be.”